Plastic packaging and shipping waste is part of the parcel of a growing eCommerce industry, but it doesn’t have to be. Rebecca Percasky and Kate Bezar created the Better Packaging Company to create sustainable alternatives for shipping and mailing, and are now keeping plastic out of landfills in 42 countries around the world.
“Consumers do make a difference. So the more that we write in and complain and ask, the better, the companies will start listening and they do make change based on that.”
In this episode:
- eCommerce packaging waste and the greenwashing around the issue
- Why beautiful design and education are both essential parts of the Better Packaging Company’s brand
- How social media has helped the company grow to 42 countries around the world
- Measuring success in terms of impact
- Running business differently and making a happy team
- Balancing entrepreneurship and home-life
- How consumers can help reduce plastic packaging waste and ask for more sustainable options from eCommerce retailers
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Show Notes
- SheEO Venture: Better Packaging Company
- Social Profiles: Facebook | Instagram
Transcript
Rebecca Percasky:
The number two complaint that they get is around packaging. Because of that, they are now looking at their packaging and what they can do. So consumers do make a difference. So the more that we write in and complain and ask, the better, the companies will start listening and they do make change based on that.
Vicki Saunders:
Welcome to SheEO.World, a podcast about redesigning the world. I’m your host, Vicki Saunders. In each episode, you’ll hear from SheEO venture founders, women who are working on the world’s to do list. These innovative business leaders are solving some of the major challenges of our times. Sit back and prepare to be inspired.
Rebecca Percasky:
Hi, I’m Becs Percasky, and I’m one of the co-founders of The Better Packaging Co.
Kate Bezar:
And I’m Kate Bezar, the other co-founder of The Better Packaging Company. We are on a mission to reduce the world’s reliance on single use plastic packaging by providing much more sustainable alternatives and making them affordable and accessible to businesses of all sizes.
Vicki Saunders:
Tell us more about what that means. Where are you starting?
Kate Bezar:
We are starting with E-commerce packaging. That’s the first cab off the rank. Becs and I have both personally seen through work that we’d done prior, the huge growth in E-commerce. It is growing by 50% year on year. Along with that growth goes a huge amount of packaging. If you imagine every online purchase is being sent out from some base warehouse in, at least a heavy duty single use courier satchel. Often it will also have bubble wrap or be in a poly bag as well. So that’s our initial focus.
Vicki Saunders:
And that is just like a ton of garbage, right?
Kate Bezar:
It is a huge amount of waste. Only 9% of plastics actually get recycled and that 9%, most of that is the rigid plastic. It’s the stuff that there is actually a secondary market for. It’s the number one and two HDPE plastics. So the soft plastics that is generally what’s used to package this stuff is very rarely recycled at all. What we have done is made an alternative that is home compostable, certified home compostable. So instead of having to find a way to recycle it, and there’s very few of those around, people can instead dispose of it themselves in their own backyard composting.
Vicki Saunders:
So starting with the E-commerce packaging, which is a massive, massive, massive waste, a challenge on the planet, and how did you come up with this idea? Where did the whole thing start?
Rebecca Percasky:
Both Kate and I were working in the E-commerce industry. I was one of the co-founders of a tech startup company that facilitated the integration of millions of E-commerce orders every month. And when we were working there, just saw firsthand how quickly E-commerce is growing. I think, believe it’s growing 50% every two years and Kate’s mentioned the number that we had seen in the courier satchels. So we were looking at sustainable packaging and I just couldn’t stomach the thought of being responsible for any more single use plastic packaging out there. So I thought, right, I’m going to investigate a sustainable option thinking this would be a really quick and easy thing to do. But it wasn’t. There just wasn’t anything on the market at that point of time that I could, hand on my heart, say was better than the alternative. So we did about 18 months of research design and testing many iterations of the product and then we launched about July of last year.
Vicki Saunders:
And what are the hard parts of, like when you say 18 months of researching and design? And I mean first of all, I can’t believe this doesn’t exist in the world already. Courier packaging globally. So what’s the hard stuff underneath it? How did you figure this out?
Rebecca Percasky:
There was a lot of Greenwashing in the industry as well. So that was sort of one of the hardest parts was to sort of cut through all of the different terminologies and what people were defining as sustainable. So there was quite a lot of work needed to be done there. That was sort of the first phase. And then it was actually just finding materials. So we don’t just look at the end of life options, which is what everyone’s really focused on. But it’s all very well and good that something may be well disposed of at end of life, but if it’s causing a lot of issues earlier on in the supply chain, then it sort of negatively balances that out. So we had to look at all of the different stages, the manufacturing, the sourcing. So there were a lot of false starts around that as well.
Kate Bezar:
I guess it was also just how do you make a courier satchel. We wanted to have find a material that was home compostable, but how do you actually make a courier satchel? Even small things like, will a courier label stick to it? actually took a long time to resolve. And are the seams tough enough to withstand having a shoebox shoved in, all of those kinds of issues we had to work through as well.
Vicki Saunders:
First of all, it’s too bad people can’t see this, but it’s absolutely beautiful. People Instagram your courier packaging. And if people are wondering what that word is, courier satchel, that’s what they say down under. Tell us about the material. It’s almost silky. It feels amazing. And then we’ll talk about your branding, which is genius, afterwards.
Kate Bezar:
Okay. Well the material itself, that is how it naturally comes. It really does just have this beautiful matte, kind of silky feel to it. And they are black for a very practical reason. It’s the most opaque color. So we are bringing out a range that isn’t black, but once you move away from black, they become slightly see-through. So yeah, it’s just sort of very practical reasons that they look and feel how they do. But as it turns out, we think it’s pretty cool.
Vicki Saunders:
And what does it made out of?
Kate Bezar:
So they’re made out of a combination of cornstarch, then a derivative of corn, called PLA, and then another resin, a home compostable resin that is called PBAT. There’s a lot more information on those on our website if anyone’s interested in getting into the nitty gritty. But that’s essentially it, yeah.
Vicki Saunders:
Okay, cool. Can you tell us a little bit about the branding that’s on the packaging itself, which I think is super cool?
Kate Bezar:
Becs and I, we both love design. And to date, I guess a lot of sustainable green products have tended to be a little bit daggy. So we wanted something that looked beautiful and was a stylish alternative to your traditional plastic courier satchel, whatever you call it over there. Here, they’re the colors of the local postal network, which is red and white and pretty horrible. So there was that. And we also wanted them to be something that people were proud to send their parcels in, rather than a compromise, which is I think how a lot of E-commerce businesses have been at the moment. They take a lot of care in their packaging and then they just shove it in this horrible ugly satchel, [inaudible 00:07:25] it out. And we wanted to turn that over and make it a really neat final step in the packaging process.
Kate Bezar:
But in terms of what’s written on the bags; information, and providing information and correct information is really important to us. There was a lot of work that we did, Becs and I, in coming up with a way to present that information, in a way that was really accessible and kind of fun. So on the back and quite naturally it is, the bags say, “I’m a real dirt bag”, which is a play obviously on the fact that they’re home compostable, that they’re real deal. There are imitators out there and I think that’s what’s caught on the most, people have a little bit of a chuckle over it. And it also very quickly tells the end recipient, so the person who’s received this parcel, that this is something different and they have to treat it differently and that there’s an opportunity to dispose of it differently.
Kate Bezar:
So hopefully it catches their eye quickly and tells them the story that it’s home compostable and that they could be disposing of it in a home compost. Hopefully they have one. If they don’t, we would like to think that they would think about getting one, which is part of our mission as well.
Vicki Saunders:
Obviously there’s just a massive impact you can have on this. First of all, we can tell by accents, not North American. You are based in New Zealand. Yay. Home of everything amazing on the planet. So being based in New Zealand, talk to us a little bit about like getting this business and getting connected around the world. How do you get the word out about what you’re doing and how have people found you so far?
Rebecca Percasky:
Our growth has been very viral and very organic, and we’ve been incredibly fortunate. But social media has worked really well for us. As you mentioned before, a lot of our bags, people receive our bags, and because they tell such a unique story and they’re a little bit funny, they take photos of them and post them on Instagram. So we sort of joke about the fact that we’ve become the first Insta-worthy courier satchel.
Vicki Saunders:
It really is a crazy thing, right?
Rebecca Percasky:
Who’s ever taken a photo of a courier bag before? We sold half a million bags in July. So we know that we’re reaching thousands, tens of thousands of people every day are receiving our packaging. And every bag tells them what we are, who we are, what we do and why we’re doing it. The bags themselves act as little flyers. So we’ve been able to reach a really large audience really quickly that way. We’ve actually been approached from all around the world. We’ve sold in 42 countries.
Vicki Saunders:
And how long have you been around?
Rebecca Percasky:
We launched in March last year, but we sold our first bags in July. Our first order sold out within two weeks and then the second order was also within two weeks and then it’s gone from there.
Vicki Saunders:
So in one year, you’re now into 42 countries. That’s incredible.
Rebecca Percasky:
Yeah, we’ve got warehousing in China, LA, New Zealand, Australia, and we’ve just launched in the UK two weeks ago. So we’re really excited about that because we’ve had a lot of interest in UK and Europe. So it’s really nice now to be able to service those customers.
Vicki Saunders:
That’s really, really exciting. How did the two of you meet to collaborate on this? Were you sitting around brainstorming as friends or how did that happen?
Kate Bezar:
As Becs mentioned, we had worked together prior to this on a tech startup that was involved in E-commerce. Becs was one of the co-founders of that and she’d brought me in for some freelance marketing, communications, promotions type work. We just found that we’ve worked really, really well together. And prior to that, we were friends. We lived in a similar area and had got to know each other well doing that. Becks had always threatened that when she went off and did her own thing next she was going to take me with her. And I had my own business before and I always said, “no way”.
Vicki Saunders:
Too hard. I get it.
Kate Bezar:
Too hard, too intense, super long. Both of us have got families. But, when she came up with this idea of making a more sustainable way to package goods for posting, I just thought it was genius and could see the potential for a really, really great story and to make a lot of impact, which is really important to both of us. So here we are.
Vicki Saunders:
Do you work in the same city?
Rebecca Percasky:
Yeah, we usually do. So Kate lives on a gorgeous little Island called Waiheke Island, which is about 30 minutes from downtown Auckland. So yeah, we do, we work in the same city and we work together. And yeah, we love working together. I couldn’t actually imagine not having done it with Kate. As she mentioned, when we work together, it seems that the sum of our two parts is always greater than what we would be doing if we were doing it individually.
Vicki Saunders:
Oh, that’s great. And how do you divide up your work? What’s your mastery, each of you?
Kate Bezar:
I do all the fluffy stuff and Becs does everything else.
Rebecca Percasky:
Very clear to us what we do, isn’t it? I kind of do all the logistics, supply management. We kind of do the product development together, then Kate does a lot of the brand and the advertising and marketing.
Vicki Saunders:
Oh that’s good. So there’s a pretty clear delineation then?
Rebecca Percasky:
There is, and then there’s areas that are obviously strategic, that we both work on together and that’s where the magic happens. We both come at things from quite different angles, often, and it’s the combination of both. We sort of seem to drive each other higher.
Vicki Saunders:
It’s really nice, well, to be synergistic, right, and to adding to each other is amazing. So how did you get started? Did you have outside funders? Did you bootstrap? How did you get it off the ground?
Rebecca Percasky:
We have bootstrapped to date and we’ve also obviously had the SheEO funding, which Kate and I were just talking about that earlier. It came at such perfect timing for us and it’s enabled us to not have to look for outside funding yet. It’s sort of given us another six to nine months, which has been amazing.
Vicki Saunders:
Oh, that’s good. I’m glad to hear that. Where is this going for you? What do you want this to be? What is success for you?
Rebecca Percasky:
Success. We measure success in terms of the impact that we’re having, both in terms of spreading a message around waste management, waste minimization, the amount of food waste that goes into landfills that shouldn’t be going into landfills, as well as obviously literally the number of tons of plastic that we’re keeping out of landfill, and out of the oceans and the environment. Whether we like it or not, however well we try to manage plastic, 30% of it inevitably ends up in the environment. And that’s just through a wind catching plastic out of a rubbish bin. And what do you call them, trash cans? And blowing it away. So someone’s tried to do the right thing, but it inevitably ends up in nature. And that’s where it does the most harm. And I think we’re only now realizing the harm it is doing, as micro-plastics are now huge quantities of them now in our oceans and getting into our soils. Yeah, I think essentially that’s how [inaudible 00:14:55] pack my bags.
Rebecca Percasky:
Absolutely. I always joke in the office that I would give it all away for free if I could, because it is about making real change.
Vicki Saunders:
I mean, this to me is the gender element around this and just the next generation coming along really looking at business differently, like how do we use our leadership to create an impact at this extremely important time in our human existence, where we have so many massive challenges and humanity is really trashing the planet. And how can we actually use business for good? You are an example for everyone else on how to do things and I wonder if you could talk to us a little bit about your business philosophy. How are you running your business? You’ve worked in other startups before, in a business before. What is unique about the way that you’re approaching this business?
Rebecca Percasky:
Firstly, I just want to address what you said to begin with, that’s something that I think about on a daily basis, how lucky we are as women to be living in this time and to be using our skills and our passions to do something for the betterment. So it is something, I think I probably say to you, Kate, on a weekly basis, you know how grateful I am for that opportunity. So, yeah, I think we do look at businesses differently. So my background, I sort of worked for some of the really well known companies like IBM and Vodafone and HP, very structured. And then I’d always wanted to run a business in a very different way and very focused on what you’re achieving and measuring success in a really different way, as well as empowering the team to do what they can do, using their skills and doing the best that they can.
Rebecca Percasky:
When we get to run this business, and Kate and I are both very similar in our thoughts and outlook on some things. It’s like a dream come true for me because we’re getting to create the rules and do it the way we want to do it. And it’s working, people are responding to it. We’re seeing phenomenal growth in our business, we’re also making change. I’d like to think we’ve got a really happy team that can all grow to the best of their abilities. So yeah, it’s just really exciting to be able to shape it in the way that you want to.
Vicki Saunders:
How have you created a happy team? What do you do to make that happen?
Rebecca Percasky:
We’re very upfront and open and honest about what’s going on. We try to take the team on the journey with us. We celebrate all of the successes together, and we’ve given them freedom, like anyone is allowed to work from home any day they want. We’ve got someone on the team with a young family, so school holidays, giving them flexibility to do that, try and keep it a really open and honest place to work.
Kate Bezar:
I think it’s also just a fairly flat structure. Becs and I don’t see ourselves as having all the answers. And in fact I think the team feel empowered to come up with solutions themselves and not have to come to us, and that their ideas are as valid as ours, if we’re confronting any kind of issues or trying to solve something.
Vicki Saunders:
It’s interesting as I listen to you talk about these things, because I, of course, know so many female founders. I’ve been a female founder forever and ever. And this concept of just empower your team to do what they can do, be upfront and open and honest, take them on the journey with you, give them freedom and flexibility in a flat structure and let them know that we all have answers, like duh. Right? But it literally is the opposite of most organizations. It’s fascinating to me that it seems so simple, but it feels like we’ve divorced, we’ve literally taken the relationship and the humanity piece out of business, and presumed that people need some kind of characteristic and that we’re all like machines, like human resources. It’s crazy. And so how many people do you have on your team right now?
Rebecca Percasky:
We’ve got eight total and five of those are full time and three are part time. Our first employee hasn’t even celebrated their one year anniversary. But we’ve grown really quickly.
Kate Bezar:
Yeah. I can’t believe how far we’ve come in a year actually. We actually now have a full time logistics person in the office because it has become such a pivotal part of our business. Because when you are shipping to 42 countries, you’ve got to have your ducks in a row. So yeah, there’s been a lot of trial and error along the way.
Vicki Saunders:
You kind of make me laugh when you’re like, we’re in 42 countries, shipping to 42 countries, and we now have one full time person. I love women so much. We do so much with so little, it’s just shocking. It’s really cool. That is amazing.
Kate Bezar:
We’re really open to as much support as we can get. And MJ has actually been incredibly helpful with that as well, in how you grow the team quickly and get the right people around you and empower them.
Vicki Saunders:
And so for those of you who maybe have heard of MJ, if listened to previous podcasts, she’s one of our SheEO coaches and kind of a magician when it comes to helping people figure out teams and structure and the talent that exists and how to unlock it. Have you both had coaches before or is this a new thing for you?
Kate Bezar:
No, it’s new thing to me. It’s fantastic.
Vicki Saunders:
And what does it help you to do? This is one of the things I’m quite passionate about, people understanding what it means to actually have sort of a performance coach or a team coach and what it can do for you.
Kate Bezar:
We’ve got so much going on at any one time and because we meet every two weeks, I almost get a bit embarrassed by how much has happened in that two weeks between when we’ve last met, because it’s such a moving target. But I think what MJ is really good at doing is honing in on those one or two things that you should be focusing on in the next month or the next three months or however short a time that is, and making sure that we focus on that in bringing it to the surface. And it helps just get rid of the rest of the noise around things. And I think when you are in that startup phase, that’s a really important thing to be able to do. So we generally just go along with a major concern at that point and we’ll talk about it, and just come up with a solution on how we’re going to deal with it.
Kate Bezar:
And that’s invaluable because it sort of takes you out of the every day. So it’s been incredibly helpful for us and sort of, there’s a few things over the last couple of months that with her advice with just being able to turn around and move onto the next thing, which we probably wouldn’t have done so quickly if we hadn’t had that coaching.
Vicki Saunders:
And what is the thing, I don’t know if you have a single thing you can think about, what stresses you out most about being an entrepreneur? And then what do you like most about being an entrepreneur?
Kate Bezar:
There’s so much potential that the thing that stresses us out, is not being able to do everything at once. Becs and I both verge on workaholism, but you can’t say you can’t expect your team to be there alongside you. I just feel constant pressure to try to get more done because I can see the impact that we could be having. If we could only get that across the line or if we could have do X, Y, or Z. But there are only so many hours in a day and there are only so many people that we can afford to hire at this present time.
Rebecca Percasky:
As Kate mentioned, there are just so many opportunities. I find it very hard to say no, quite a lot of women do. So this is something that we struggle with and taking too much on board. It’s also one of the exciting things about it as well, in a funny way, because the flip side of it is there is just so much opportunity. And because we’re working with a compostable film, pretty much anywhere you see a plastic film, that’s an opportunity for better packaging.
Vicki Saunders:
Right? Yeah, totally.
Rebecca Percasky:
Yeah. So nearly every single person you talk to is impacted by plastic film, either in their work or their life or some way. The flip side of it, is it’s so really exciting as well. But it’s how we sort of focus ourselves to go forward and don’t spread ourselves too thin.
Vicki Saunders:
I know lots of opportunistic entrepreneurs. I am one of them too and the same thing. Like I love, love, love what I’m doing and I get so much positive feedback from it that I want to do more and more. How do you unplug? You both have families here, it’s a crazy time of your life. What do you do to replenish and restore yourself?
Rebecca Percasky:
I’ve got quite disciplined this year because I have got young children and they’re all at primary school. So they’re all sort of age six to nine. So I’ve made a real effort, about six months ago, I think actually after the SheEO retreat, this came out of MJ, talking with MJ, to dedicate some time when I got home with the kids, just to switch off and make sure I was switched off from my computer or my phone away, and just really spend that time with them, being a bit silly, it might be driving them to school or whatever it is. And that has really made a big impact to my stress levels, being able to be present in that moment. So that’s kind of the main thing that I focus on, on a weekly basis.
Kate Bezar:
Yeah, the stress comes from feeling torn and conflicted. And I think if you just make some conscious decisions around or compartmentalize, I guess a bit better, than perhaps we did last year, that definitely helps.
Vicki Saunders:
Yeah. I think that this boundary setting is something that we all have to get good at. Right? Which is, okay, so, the most amazing thing I think about being an entrepreneur is that you define the rules. And when you forget that, that can be the challenge, right? It’s like wait a minute, you became an entrepreneur for the freedom, the flexibility and obviously for the impact. So what makes a perfect life for you, or at this point where you are? And I find oftentimes, people sort of forget that. They just go, “oh, I have to work 24/7” because somewhere out there, there’s a narrative that you always have to be on. Well it’s all made up. And I guess it’s challenging sometimes when you have such an incredible business like you do, which can have a huge impact and you see endless need. And so the balance that I can imagine, is pretty challenging. So you’ve got busy family lives, a crazy business, it’s growing really fast. Do you hang out with other female founders for support and encouragement at all? Do you have time for that?
Kate Bezar:
Yeah, each other?
Rebecca Percasky:
We have been to a couple of SheEO events which have been running to get togethers, which were really neat. And we do go to a few industry type events, waste management and sustainable business. Obviously through that, sometimes you gravitate to the other females in the room. But sometimes it’s just about meeting people who are on a similar journey to you as well and feeding off their energy, which is really neat.
Vicki Saunders:
And do you have a need, right now that you’d like to ask our listeners to support you with? Is there anything specifically that you’re looking for?
Kate Bezar:
The one that sprang to my mind the quickest was just support for our new UK warehouse. If anyone knows any E-commerce businesses or retail businesses looking for sustainable packaging in Europe and UK to share our details would be amazing.
Vicki Saunders:
And just by going to your website, betterpackaging.com?
Kate Bezar:
Yeah, betterpackaging.com.
Vicki Saunders:
So we can send you ideas for potential customers or talk about what you’re doing. We can take pictures of your amazing courier package when they see it, which I did today and I’m about to post on social because we got your package. Yay. Thank you very much. I’m so excited. Are there messages around how we can be more aware as consumers? I really believe that there’s like a pressure point that, as a consumer, we can put on the brands that we’re buying from. So what can we do as individuals to support what you’re doing and push on the companies we’re buying from?
Kate Bezar:
Well I guess the most obvious thing is next time you receive a package and some packaging that you’re not sure how you can dispose of what recycle, you can contact the company and either suggest a more sustainable alternative. They might be able to find some on betterpackaging.com. Or what we’re having some success with, companies that we’re working with, is that they can’t even just offer a more eco option at checkout. So people can actually choose what type of packaging they want their parcel to arrive in. And we’re finding, so there’s one beautiful jewelry company in New Zealand, who people can choose either some fancy packaging for their jewelry or a home compostable possible alternative, which is ours. And they are finding 90% of people are choosing the eco-option, which is a statistic we just find phenomenal. It doesn’t cost any more, the cost are the same. And 90% of people are choosing not to have the bows and ribbons, but they’d rather something that they can put in their home compost in the end, which is really-
Vicki Saunders:
Amazing, and hopefully they will Instagram it as well, so it’ll be more marketing for you. That’s actually really fascinating. I mean that’s incredible market research isn’t it? You can use that and say to other people, like literally people feel better about not having that. I just ordered a pair of Allbirds and the packaging was insane. Why is it in that? Why can’t I get it? Hey Allbirds, out there in the world, check out Better Packaging.
Kate Bezar:
Well, actually, they have started using us for some of their smaller items in New Zealand.
Vicki Saunders:
Oh, that’s good to know.
Rebecca Percasky:
Really exciting. But on that question about what we can do, I was at an ‘end of plastics’ sustainable business network conference. It was the most amazing day. At the end of that they summed it up and said, look, start supporting the businesses that are making these changes because if we support the businesses that are operating more sustainably, using more sustainable packaging, then the other businesses are going to be forced to follow suit. So I think the single best thing we can all do is just to start to research where we’re getting our products from and how they’re made and support the right businesses. I mean even before you make a purchase, you can always contact support and say, “hi, I’m thinking about buying a pair of your shoes but I just want to make sure it’s not going to come in layers and layers of plastic.” Yeah, I think that sends a pretty strong message. I’m just going to add some more information because I met with a really amazing guy yesterday, who is CEO of one of the food bags in New Zealand with the meal kits and he was just saying that the number two complaint that they get is around packaging. Because of that, they are now looking at their packaging and what they can do. So consumers do make a difference. So the more that we write in and complain and ask for better, the companies will start listening and they do make change based on that.
Vicki Saunders:
Great message to leave with. Well thank you very much the two of you for the amazing work that you’re doing. May your business spread all over the world with lightning speed, with also time for you to play with and see your kids after work. And thank you very much for leading the way you do. You’re a real example for other women led ventures and all of us around the world.
Kate Bezar:
Thank you Vicki, for all your support, and SheEO of course.
Rebecca Percasky:
It’s been an incredible journey so far. Thank you.
Vicki Saunders:
Well, we hope to have many more podcasts with you over the years as you grow and grow. So thank you again, and yay New Zealand.
Rebecca Percasky:
Kia ora.
Vicki Saunders:
Kia ora.
Vicki Saunders:
Thank you for listening to the SheEO.world podcast. If this conversation resonated with you, please share it with a friend and subscribe on your favorite podcast player. If you’d like more information about SheEO, please visit us at SheEO.world.
